Mechanic: Raiding Neutrals as Good

A place for discussion about Nexus Clash game mechanics, including Build Advice.
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sekki
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Mechanic: Raiding Neutrals as Good

Post by sekki » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:29 am

In this brave new world good, evil and neutral are all mutually opposed. So goods can and should war over turf with neutrals as the elder powers demand. Therefore warring with neutrals (i.e. people who infuse to neutral) shouldn’t be an evil act?

Fellis
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Re: Skill: HoZ for goods (i.e. people who infuse to good)

Post by Fellis » Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:10 pm

I don't understand what you are asking, was there something that makes you think infusing against neutral is classified as evil?

Also changed thread title per: https://www.nexusclash.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5

sekki
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Re: Skill: HoZ for goods (i.e. people who infuse to good)

Post by sekki » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:00 pm

No this isn’t about infusion directly. More about how war is conducted flavor-wise?

Like in some sense Goods and Neutrals are opposed this breath. So should Goods still be penalized for using martial means to kick neutrals out of a piece of territory?

But I could also be missing a piece of lore that makes this make sense.

Fellis
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Re: Mechanic: Raiding Neutrals as Good

Post by Fellis » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:21 am

Ok, tossed this into mechanics discussion since I think it's more fitting here as an open-ended discussion of the whole dynamic.

HoZ exists for some classes and not for others. In the lore the elder powers are divided on how to treat neutral morality so neutral factions are supposed to be a bit of a difficult thing to deal with as a good faction. The large amount of power that Good as an alignment can bring to bear is hampered by certain classes unable to participate in the fight, or at least can participate with consequences.

I definitely have heard a variety of opinions on this dynamic since HoZ/HTT were made more expensive. I won't state them all here because I'm lazy, but this is a good thing to discuss. I'm sure this thread could spawn some suggestions, feel free to post those in that forum

SaltedSalmon
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Re: Mechanic: Raiding Neutrals as Good

Post by SaltedSalmon » Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:09 am

I'm sorry to say this, but most of the changes on Head of Zealotry and Holier Than Thou seem like they were made without gameplay in mind. I can't imagine that the Good-Neutral dynamic will be very fun this breath. Its worse now because the CP costs increased, specially for classes that really need it (EX: Lightspeaker so they don't get wrecked by a random Nexus Champions and lose all the MP/AP they spent on pets, for one)

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Alyss
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Re: Mechanic: Raiding Neutrals as Good

Post by Alyss » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:19 am

They were very poor changes. Even in B4 Angels had a natural disadvantage against Transcendent chars around the map as they could be attacked by the latter whenever they felt like, and then those same characters could so long as they avoided the evil bin just be in the good MO range again after killing an IB, or failing that just heal your friends for a cycle. A lot of the time it happened as an unintended side-effect due to how malleable in a pretty short term MO was, unless you're an angel in which case it's not. It meant you couldn't even count on some of the biggest mass-murdering transcendents being evil when you came across them, and again they wouldn't necessarily even be trying to pump their MO for additional protection, they'd just literally have been in low-neutral range before raiding an evil faction and boom. You could even walk in on a Lich with their summons set to hostile mauling you, attack them and deangel for it. These are just examples of how one-sided it was.

But mercifully, at least when faction SHs were concerned, stronghold overrides - once shitty bugs like Lightspeaker summons selecting valid targets based on their personal MO, not the MO of the SH they were in had been fixed - sorted most of the issues with raiding, allowing good and unaligned factions to conflict that way at least with no more than a minor disadvantage to good (technically you could deangel if you got too many -2 MOs off killing good chars of the unaligned SH but this was quite rare), and a 20 CP tax for Hand of Zealotry almost every angel in the entire game chose to pay. It also meant angel characters could level through T2 with a combat-oriented playstyle while only having a minority of their targets being denied.

This isn't the case anymore. HoZ is just as required as it was as - without it, you literally cannot participate in attacking an unaligned SH except for attacking the ward and fortifications. But now HoZ also represents a very meaningful CP tax, requiring a *minimum* of 30 out of the very limited budget chars have for Tier 3 skills. In general most chars also won't be able to acquire HoZ until Level 25 or so because otherwise it means delaying your core T3 skills which leaves you weaker for longer, thus making the angel leveling experience much more miserable and limiting you to evil targets only + non-combat progressions. And I'd just like to say here that Crusader Piety and Zeal better work off the applied MO (i.e MO of the stronghold), not the target's true MO or that makes shit even worse. Paladins also now lose combat stats even just for daring to be under 40 MO, so any attacks they choose to make on a neutral MO char will have an even bigger impact. Really these restrictions will just force people into gameplay where they attack neutrals (maybe even goods) because they have to and then MO drain off evils in the vicinity as well, because otherwise it's just don't attack roughly 60% of people at all.

HoZ being 60 CP on Lightspeaker, a class with a particularly expensive core and who particularly requires HoZ to even function no matter what because going without it means being (and I verified this to check it's still the case) literally deleted bypassing your summons by any "neutral" or even "good" character who wants to kill you and won't fall into evil as a result of making the attack. They will not retaliate against them or even target them on the next pet tick at all which is just egregious.

HoZ needs to be back to being 20 CP in Tier 2. This kind of T3 CP-gating and added unpleasantry to the leveling experience for angels, who already would have their leveling somewhat slowed by the more limited target pool even if so, it's really just too much. Although some angel classes might have advantages, the nature of being angel "race" now is literally all gameplay disadvantages and restrictions with not one upside.

Also, Holier Than Thou, one of the most useless skills in the entire game (except for Lightspeaker, who pretty much needed that as well as HoZ for raiding...), got made into 60 CP and only on very select classes which is just hilarious. I wouldn't even pay 5 CP for it on most angel classes, so this can only be described as a hate nerf - in which case just... rework it or remove it entirely if it's so loathed by development.

It's a set of changes which is seeking to impose playstyles rather than improve gameplay, and as a result angels just have to put up with worse gameplay and not being able to fight back properly at various points against other characters who don't have to worry at all. For me it's a big turn-off to playing angel classes in B5 - even if I like their kits, since I could... just play a different class with a kit I also like, be able to level smoothly and still be good-natured and helpful to other characters as much as I wanted.

sekki
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Re: Mechanic: Raiding Neutrals as Good

Post by sekki » Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:04 am

Strong +1 on the HoZ for LS being particularly egregious. (Maybe this should be for a different thread but I think LS pets should be allowed to retaliate regardless of attackers MO and this shouldn't ding the LS's morality - this isn't even about Raiding Neutrals As Goods, this is Not Being ROFL-Stomped By Raiding Neutrals As Goods).

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Warharan
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Re: Mechanic: Raiding Neutrals as Good

Post by Warharan » Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:23 am

HoZ being so very, (very!) expensive sure seems a massive tax on being good.
Are there upsides to playing an angel I am not aware of?
(note; old soul* but very new back in this breath after several years being dormant)


*= old enough to remember Firduath the rogue seraph for example. ;)
Note that my avatar is merely the coat of arms of the city where I live.
But feel free to add additional meaning to that.

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littleglassflowers
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Re: Mechanic: Raiding Neutrals as Good

Post by littleglassflowers » Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:37 pm

Given how morality works, could there be a way to tie morality to factions?

I.E. IF your faction and another are mutual enemies, faction leaders can alter the morality gain/loss of dealing with them? At least set it to neutral, as it's no longer about morals, but about your factions' ideologies. These petty disputes are beyond the notice of those who would watch, and their muddying the waters of what might be called moral itself could serve as a good metaphor for the state of the Nexus.

ALTERNATIVELY, maybe an on-use item that temporarily blocks moral shifts, but risks shattering and flipping the holder's alignment? I'd like to understand the mechanics better before commenting further.

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kylinn
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Re: Mechanic: Raiding Neutrals as Good

Post by kylinn » Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:39 pm

+1 to some kind of mechanic to ameliorate the effect of attacking a Neutral or Good who is in a faction of your faction's enemies.

My characters don't tend to use HoZ, being more support characters, but it is vital for raiding Lightspeakers and very helpful for angelic warriors. Making it so very expensive this Breath is really going to hurt.

(-10 to a risk of flipping your MO with an object. That's not so bad for demons - it doesn't take long to attack enough people to go Evil again. But for Angels it would be a major issue. It's hard enough maintaining being Good already.)

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