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Nexus Clash :: View topic - Without considering flavor, why are demons unhealable?
It's quite joyless and offputting. Seriously, just trust the designer (or don't) and play the fecking game (or don't).
Seriously? Is it that bad to talk about *widely accepted* game design and exchange opinions if it's worth trying to change it?
I actually don't think demons are inferior to angels and even if they are there's just more good faction who raids (or at least competent with it) than the evil factions. I believe it all depends on the players playing behind the factions.
Back on topic.
Ongewitter wrote:
No external healing screws over IBs and defenders in raids who decide to play the "lets keep the petmaster alive" game, in addition to not getting any healing XP.
*hides*
I've raised the same point in my previous post. Maybe they aren't supposed to be good at that?
Joined: May 31, 2010 Posts: 100 Location: London, UK
Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:27 am Post subject:
Dissident wrote:
Masumi wrote:
It's quite joyless and offputting. Seriously, just trust the designer (or don't) and play the fecking game (or don't).
Seriously? Is it that bad to talk about *widely accepted* game design and exchange opinions if it's worth trying to change it?
I actually don't think demons are inferior to angels and even if they are there's just more good faction who raids (or at least competent with it) than the evil factions. I believe it all depends on the players
Oh, it's not just this thread, dissident, it's an accumulation of this and the other 383 threads in this section alone, and the way that practically every active discussion is a mechanistic one with statistics, citations and footnotes. I know it floats some people's boats, but the overall effect feels sour and nitpicky. That's all. I'll shut up now. Sorry for the threadjack. _________________
Well, with regards to the many, many aspects of gameplay that work really well and are great fun, I guess people just enjoy those and don't make a fuss about them.
On-topic, I think the main thing that would be useful for Demons is some sort of passive regeneration, perhaps akin to the One with Death bonus. Just so that you don't have the annoyance of logging on with 15 HP or whatever when you miraculously survive overnight.
Personally I don't really like tactics which involve stalling a battle rather than actively fighting (such as healing a Petmaster ad nauseum). So rather than altering the rules so that Demons can do it, I'd rather alter them so that it's harder for Angels/Trancendents to do it.
Something like, making First Aid/Surgery work over time rather than instantaneously? I mean, if you get stabbed repeatedly in real life then bandages alone are not going to get you back to full health straight away...
On the Flipside, Demons are (supposed to be) better at self-healing. Defilers can produce Blood Ice just by murdering people (although the chance for that is lower than it really ought to be IMO). The idea of moving Blood Taste to a child of Enervate and make it work with all weapon trees is going strong, and so is the idea of bringing back Lesser Regeneration.
The key problem here is...damage itself, Defilers aren't really murderous machines, so aren't Pariahs, I mean, they don't have the 'I deal a lot of damage, to the point where I'm okay with not having external healing' profile.
Defilers deal as much damage as Shepherds, but I don't see how bringing up their damage output has anything to do with having twice as many potential targets.
Likewise, the Pariah and Paladin are also pretty even. The Enervate/Rend Flesh combo averages to a +13.75% accuracy and +1.75 damage with a 5 MP charge attack, plus twice the range of targets. Compare to the Paladin who gets +2 passive damage, no additional accuracy, a 10 tick toggle that gives 2 more damage, and half the targets.
While on that same note: Bolster Attack stops being worthwhile anytime you're already dealing 11 or more damage after soak. On the other hand, Enervate/Rend Flesh remains worthwhile, as it does not cost an additional AP. So don't so saying how great you think Bolster Attack is because once you hit tier 3, it isn't.
You got me wrong, I'm not arguing their raw damage output against any other classes, demons against angels, etc etc.
I'm arguing their ability to pull damage and kills when not in raids to make their self healing abilities go off in a satisfactory way, to make sure they're not always sitting around with 25% HP. Which, in my opinion, is a huge disavantage.
To the rest of the thread: I am not trying to say 'DEMONS ARE SHIT WITHOUT HEALING, WAH WAH.' I'm trying to understand what is the reason for demons to not have external healing, I think the 'angels have to keep an eye out on their MO' argument to be a house of cards at best given how the current factional MO stuff works.
I'm not trying to pull numbers, I'm trying to understand why demons have this when the point of the game is factional combat, in which external healing is a big deal.
Demons need something to define them. They steal from and hurt others rather than giving and bolstering. I think it's pretty neat. It reminds me of that story about heaven and hell both being giant round tables where everyone has giant chopsticks.
I'm not trying to pull numbers, I'm trying to understand why demons have this when the point of the game is factional combat, in which external healing is a big deal.
Game design. Demons are made to be unable to heal or buff other because that is both mechanically and thematically relevant to their roles. That is not to say that demons are absolutely banned from being supportive. I've been part of demon faction who passed alchemical ingredient, passing out pristine weapons and such. I even made potions of regeneration specifically so that my allies wouldn't stay bleeding all the time.
And there is no one sole unifying end point goal in the game. Faction play is a big one yeah but there are plenty ferals out their who don't participate in faction warfare and have just as much fun. I wouldn't say they're missing the point of the game because of that.
I'm not trying to pull numbers, I'm trying to understand why demons have this when the point of the game is factional combat, in which external healing is a big deal.
Game design. Demons are made to be unable to heal or buff other because that is both mechanically and thematically relevant to their roles. That is not to say that demons are absolutely banned from being supportive.
Here is the theme problem for me, demons can heal others, they just cannot receive healing. So it is not that they cannot do good actions as prohibited by the theme, they just cannot receive healing from others, as if their flesh prevented them from being repaired.
I'm not trying to pull numbers, I'm trying to understand why demons have this when the point of the game is factional combat, in which external healing is a big deal.
Game design. Demons are made to be unable to heal or buff other because that is both mechanically and thematically relevant to their roles. That is not to say that demons are absolutely banned from being supportive.
Here is the theme problem for me, demons can heal others, they just cannot receive healing. So it is not that they cannot do good actions as prohibited by the theme, they just cannot receive healing from others, as if their flesh prevented them from being repaired.
I always thought of it as demons being too proud to accept help from others. To do so would make them look "weak" to others (and since demons have a 'only the strong survive' vibe...)
Here is the theme problem for me, demons can heal others, they just cannot receive healing. So it is not that they cannot do good actions as prohibited by the theme, they just cannot receive healing from others, as if their flesh prevented them from being repaired.
Vicdarippa wrote:
I always thought of it as demons being too proud to accept help from others. To do so would make them look "weak" to others (and since demons have a 'only the strong survive' vibe...)
Themewise, they can't accept external healing because they have violated the Law of Namm, and Namm has cursed them. The Curse of Namm would make little sense if it prevented the demon from healing others, while allowing others to heal them.
Last edited by Teksura on Thu May 10, 2012 3:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
Pretty cool flavour, as flavour goes, and to whomever had that idea, it is an awesome idea.
But we know the mechanic existed before there were all those cool gods, and cool as it may be, it remains a deus ex machina.
My point, Fluffy, was that you were saying that demons could not heal because of theme, and I was saying demons cannot be healed.
But then again, we might be going into a tangent because OP indicates "without considering flavour" and here we are talking flavour. Damn, OP I failed you sorry.
Yeah...about the 6 last posts, flavor is easily mutable and bent around sensible balance choices. I made this thread to discuss the reasons on why demons aren't healable in a 'game' sort of way.
Anyway.
fluffymasterchief wrote:
Game design. Demons are made to be unable to heal or buff other because that is both mechanically and thematically relevant to their roles. That is not to say that demons are absolutely banned from being supportive. I've been part of demon faction who passed alchemical ingredient, passing out pristine weapons and such. I even made potions of regeneration specifically so that my allies wouldn't stay bleeding all the time.
This paragraph was the very reason I made the title of this thread start with 'Without considering flavor...' because in these sort of discussions, if you consider flavor, you are bound to get someone to go 'Evil is evil, they are bound to be non-helpful but there are exceptions' and then the discussion goes sideways and nothing gets truly discussed, just thrown into the thread unceremoniously.
I feel safe to assume that any of the top evil factions in the game are very supportive of their members in a logistical level, because if they weren't they wouldn't be there. At all. Evil =/= Stupid
There are other mechanics, mechanics that most people I've talked with feel like it's not a particularly good design choice that runs over flavor with a forklift.
SO, in an attempt to put this flaming, explosive train wreck back on track...
fluffymasterchief wrote:
And there is no one sole unifying end point goal in the game. Faction play is a big one yeah but there are plenty ferals out their who don't participate in faction warfare and have just as much fun. I wouldn't say they're missing the point of the game because of that.
They totally aren't, power to them, but as you said it yourself faction play is a big point to this game and I believe that, so far, no one has said that they think the inability to accept external healing isn't a big deal to faction play.
Mad, if you're looking for a hard numeric data, a systematic function, or statistical evidence, you're not going to get it because there isn't one.
We already gave you all the reasons why demon's can't be healed: it's a feature that defines them (Demons are self-reliant and selfish). That's it. There is no way anyone can quantify a distinction and the roles we play into numbers and mechanics or explain in 'game' sort of way. Though if we could, figuring out how to make the bestest game ever would be whole lot easier.
Madz wrote:
faction play is a big point to this game and I believe that, so far, no one has said that they think the inability to accept external healing isn't a big deal to faction play.
Maybe that's because majority of demon players thought that it's not a big deal?
Compared to angels, demons are more popular, level faster, and become really good at raid lately. So no, I don't think not being healed is a big deal.....but I'm derailing again aren't I?
They totally aren't, power to them, but as you said it yourself faction play is a big point to this game and I believe that, so far, no one has said that they think the inability to accept external healing isn't a big deal to faction play.
I just looked at that post and noticed that the totals he posted don't match the numbers given in the table he posted. It looks like he subtracted ferals twice (which means the demons' numbers advantage is WAY bigger than you think it is). Based on the table, VWs account for 44% of all T3 demons, so we may be seeing one flaw masking another in the stats. My expectation is that once you remove VWs, demons are actually lower-level than angels. It's hard to say which Pariahs are going VW so it's not possible to confirm this completely with the stats, but it's certainly true of Defilers and their exits.
This was completely wrong. I had misread the table; I thought it seperated "factioned" and "unfactioned," but it actually looked at "total" and "unfactioned." VWs accounted for 40% of demon T3s at the time.
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